Chile Sin Carne

Blogs don’t get much worse than this, aka Apologetics for dummies

Posted in Kenya Blogs by Jim/Nick on June 14, 2010

Recently I made it to 16 pullups in a set,  and while it’s not quite the twenty pull-ups I set as a New Year’s resolution, it’s more than thrice the number I could do before I came to Nairobai and I’m very glad to be over 15, anyway I feel all vital and energetic, and I thought, if it would be OK, that I would write a bit about my stupid diet. Now, before you groan and call me a preachy knob, let the record state that I’ve never written about vegetarianism before, and since people often ask why I follow this retarded hippie/Hindu diet that clearly makes me weak and anemic, I thought I’d get it down on paper (screen) so I can like, not have to talk about it again. It’s a really little thing that I do that shouldn’t define me, but it gets a lot of attention, so.

So like I don’t eat meat, and that’s often equated with douchebaggery, and while I am of course a complete douchebag, I wouldn’t want people to think I am just because of this. Just as if I said I were a Muslim you wouldn’t instantly equate me to Al Qaeda, or if I were a Republican you wouldn’t instantly equate me to Bush, being a vegetarian shouldn’t equate someone to a militant PETA carnivore-basher who throws paint on people in fur coats and protests Obama swatting that fly and complains about hearing your lunch screaming as you eat a burger.  There are literally squillions (sic) of reasons why different people don’t eat meat just like there are lots of reasons people vote for a particular candidate or whatever. I know a guy for example doing a PhD in Economics and he eschews meat for the economic reasons, which are very interesting and valid, but aren’t really why I avoid it, just like a lot of vegetarians’ reasons aren’t mine.

I used to think (and might have said/implied a few times – retroactive apologies) that not eating meat because I couldn’t kill an animal made me a 100% consistent human being and that I now wasn’t a hypocrite in any way shape or form, but of course that’s not true. Like, animals get chewed up by crop harvesters for my food and cotton harvesters for my t-shirts, and I eat eggs and milk during the procurement of which animals often suffer, and I don’t really make any effort to try to make sure I buy lipstick that wasn’t tested on animals, I use paper which would have annihilated countless animals and animal habitats in its production, you know. Plus every time I go to the fuel pump I’m supporting whatever Middle Eastern war we’re at, when I pay taxes my money is going toward enforcing some laws I don’t agree with, I buy some tweezers from a chain supermarket and I’m supporting a big conglomerate that would have forced the closure of local family businesses and caused pain and sadness when it didn’t have to, I watch The Simpsons and my viewership goes toward Fox which funds warmongering Fox News and Bill O’Reilly’s paycheck (“and we can’t watch Fox because they own those chemical weapons plants in Syria!” complained Homer about the ethics Lisa enforces in one episode),  etc etc etc So it’s not as though I think the not eating meat thing means I’m completely consistent and perfect. The only way to totally be consistent is to live in a commune and grow and make everything yourself and be cut off from the rest of the world, and while I respect the people that are committed to their ethics enough to do that, like, I’m not going to do that. I’ve got shit to do. Like I also totally understand why someone would be a vegan, but I don’t want to give up milk and eggs. I’d have to stop eating cake and pasta. And cheese kicks ass.

(If it has no rennet.)

Pretty much no one is 100% consistent, I’m not, and because of that I have no right to judge or look down on other people for not doing what I do – not that judging people would be OK even if I did live in a commune, because judging people sucks. So yeah not eating meat is just this teeny tiny little thing that I do that is a personal choice and doesn’t involve anyone else. Like, I get mad at myself if I don’t exercise or meditate or read enough, and I certainly don’t get mad at other people for those reasons, that would be insane. You have to be hard on yourself and soft on others, right?

A friend got mad at me for these inconsistencies once a long time ago, back when I thought not eating meat made me awesome. We watched Lethal Weapon and when a fish tank was destroyed in a gunfight, someone said “He just killed all those fish!” and I went “He probably eats meat and doesn’t care,” which is pretty up there with the tool-iest things a vegetarian can say. As though nothing I ever do hurts animals. Anyway this friend got mad at me when I admitted that I wasn’t completely consistent after being so judgmental, and while he was right to do so because I was being a judgmental dick, I think as long as you keep it to yourself and don’t judge, stay humble, vegetarianism is alright. I mean it’s hard to say that it’s a negative thing to do, even if you think there are no positives. I bought leather shoes for work, right, which I won’t deny I felt conflicted about, but I think getting mad at a vegetarian for not eating meat while they buy leather shoes is sort of like running after the guy who gives a dollar to World Vision collectors and telling him he’s a hypocrite because he’s not selling all his belongings and moving to the Congo to install sewage systems, you know. Like just because you’re not doing everything you possibly can for a cause doesn’t mean you can’t contribute a little, as long as you don’t preach about how it makes you a complete angel. Before you point your fingers, make sure your hands are clean, rar rar.

Also, yes, plants are alive too, but I do need to eat something, I don’t have to hold down an apple as I stick a knife into it, and while there are lots of definitions of consciousness, I try to be as scientific as I can and base what is (or could be) conscious and what’s not on what has a brain and what doesn’t (screw you, bacteria in my yoghurt, I’ll kill you good!). Sometimes people try to convince me plants and animals are the same thing because of their “life force” (?) and that they feed and they respond to stimuli, but let’s be grounded, taxonomy splits up animals and plants pretty quickly. I mean, they’re pretty different. Looking into the eyes of a potato and the eyes of a dog are pretty different experiences. Anyway, I draw my line at brains.

A big thing people often get at me for is that I can’t possibly satisfy my body on this diet, and it’s weird because in the real world all your friends tell you it’s unhealthy and in the academic world everyone tells you that it’s really healthy, but I don’t really think it’s either. A while ago I decided the primary reason for not eating meat was health, instead of ethics or whatever, because I thought that at least was quantitative, you know science and facts and percentages and statistics and stuff are a bit less infirm and wishy-washy than ethics. While studies do say there’s less saturated fat and cholesterol and sodium in a vegetarian diet, I could theoretically eat a Pizza Hut Veggie Supreme™ every night and have a heart attack at 40 while following a vegetarian diet. I think the idea that vegetarianism is by definition/practice “healthier” is a bit flawed, the studies showing vegetarians as healthier and having less cancer and heart disease and such are because people in the

Terrifying looking 80s bodybuilder Andreas Cahling is a vegetarian. I don't know, you see what I'm getting at.

West who wind up vegetarian are generally a little more protective of their bodies and are non-smoking middle/upper class people who are a little educated about how we shouldn’t eat fast food every day. I mean if  the only meat you ate was fish and skinless chicken and lean everything else and you didn’t eat it too often, you’d be as healthy as a healthy vegetarian. That said, I got healthier when I went off meat because I reacted to meathead friends saying vegetarianism is unhealthy by doing a lot of reading on nutrition and I wound up a lot more conscious of what I eat as a result. So in regards to the health aspect of vegetarianism, I’m more trying to make the point that while it’s not automatically healthier, it’s very very far from an inadequate dietary choice. Everything the body could want can be found on a vegetarian diet (please do research if you don’t think so), it suits the needs of athletes and bodybuilders, the trainer from The Biggest Loser and the winner of The Ultimate Fighter 6 are vegetarians, Tobey Maguire was when he was all ripped in Spider-Man, like every dietetic association there is approves a well-planned vegetarian diet, it’s really, really weird how many genuinely smart people think that trained medical professionals are wrong and that you can’t get any/enough protein or iron or Omega fatty acids or b12 or folate or whatever without meat.

Anyway, I get protein from dairy, eggs, nuts, soy, lentils (I’ve started making dhal lately), wholemeal everything, seeds, oats, quinoa, amaranth, et cetera, ad nausuem… (these all have iron too, except dairy and most nuts, cashews are good iron though) In terms of amino acids, people think veg protein never has all of them, but here’s the thing with amino acids. First of all this thing called the Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score, a scale which is generally regarded as the best way to judge a protein’s suitability for human consumption re: amino acid composition, says the only things that score a perfect 1.0 on the scale are egg white, soy isolate, casein, whey and milk, which are all things I eat. Lately I stumbled across quinoa and amaranth in the supermarket, these funny sort of crops that are really high in protein and iron and calcium and contain all the essential amino acids as well (even lysine! Lysine, u guyz!!!), they’re the funniest things, they’re thinking of using quinoa on space stations it’s so nutritious. Also, I think Quinoa would be a cool name for a kid. Quinny. “Because she completes me and quinoa is a complete protein. Get it?” you would get used to saying. And then there are also other vegan sources of complete proteins (complete meaning they have all the amino acids) like buckwheat and lupin and even chia (gnaws on Obama chia pet), but see with amino acids, you can also combine incomplete proteins to make a meal with all the amino acids, like mixing brown rice and beans, or hummus and pita, or eating Ezekiel bread (whose combination of millet and barley and wheat results in a complete amino acid profile) BUT the thing is you don’t actually need to have all the amino acids in a meal anyway, you just need them all in a day. So, quit worrying about amino acids so much, because I knew you were.

Some people also think that iron intake is low among vegetarians because of a lack of iron or a lack of heme iron (iron that comes from blood) which is meant to absorb better than non-heme iron, but I get an average of 4 eggs a day and egg iron is heme, but also if you get vitamin C with your non-heme iron (and we should have soem vitamin C with all our meals anyway) the absorbability of heme and non-heme iron is the same anyway. So quit busting my balls on non-heme iron, you jerk.

Vegetarians aren’t always healthy though of course, just like not all meat eaters (meaters?) aren’t always healthy either. Going to India was good for me because before then I was like “rar rar vegetarianism makes you healthy” but then I found myself in a country of hundreds of millions of vegetarians who just eat a ton of white rice and ghee every day, and like, aren’t healthy, a lot aren’t

Brown rice with dhal I made from mung beans, tofu and chickpeas packed about 70 grams of complete (vegan) protein. I ate an assload though.

anyway. You know you can eat Skittles, pasta and butter all day and that’s vegetarian, but you won’t be healthy, vegetarianism and health are basically separate subjects, I’m not writing to say veg. is absolutely healthier, I’m just saying you can be healthy without meat, which a mind-bogglingly large amount of people I meet don’t think is true. It is a real shame how often people decide to try going off meat, get protein/iron deficiencies and run back to eating meat again while telling everyone that vegetarianism is an inadequate diet, like it’s truly heartbreaking. If you’re taking meat out of a Western meal that’s designed to have meat as the protein and iron, you have to replace the protein and iron, or make a different meal with protein and iron, or at the very least have a glass or two of milk with your salad, and lots of fledgling vegetarians don’t. My Dad is the smartest guy in the world, but he experimented with vegetarianism and bailed after a month, saying he was always tired, because he didn’t – sorry, Dad – do the work you need to do if you’re going to take up a freak diet that isn’t normal or well understood in your culture. The protein/iron/B vitamins/Omega acids etc are all there, there are literally zillions (sic) of non-meat sources (The Omega acids in fish you can get in eggs and olive oil and avocado and some seeds and nuts, you know), it’s honestly not that hard to have a high-protein vegetarian or vegan diet, you just have to do a bit of reading, but as vegetarians are often hippies and hippies are often skinny and lazy, this stereotype of the skinny vegetarian arises. I only use a protein supplement right after exercise (like most guys do, on any diet), other than that I get all my nutrients from real food. And I can do 16 pull-ups in a row (did I mention that?), like I feel and function pretty well on this diet.

After those arguments, people usually start throwing out known logical fallacies to attack vegetarianism, like the appeal to nature (that animals eat meat is not a reason to eat meat – animals rape and kill and cannibalise each other, they are not moral compasses for humans!) or the appeal to tradition (that people have always done something is not a reason to keep doing it – see how long women/blacks have had equal rights to white men, how long it took people to abolish capital punishment etc. for examples), or they ask would I starve on a desert island if there was only a cow to eat (no, I’d kill the shit out of that cow, but I’m not on a desert island right now). Or then they say that we have canine teeth for eating meat and that we’re apes and apes kill animals, except that gorillas are in the top three closest relatives to people and they have big canines but are herbivores, the canines are for crunching bamboo and for show (sometimes they eat ants, but it’s not like the canines are for that). But again, we shouldn’t base our actions on what animals do. I couldn’t justify killing my new girlfriend’s son that she had with another man to establish my dominance in the relationship because chimps do that and I’m just a primate. (Believe me, the judge did not go for that defense.) Sometimes people say the fact that we can eat meat means we’re “designed” to eat it, even though we can’t eat it raw like every carnivore does, then people say well cooking meat is an evolution of tool making so it’s natural, then the others reply that we don’t metabolize the fat and cholesterol anywhere near as well as animal predators, which some people think means that we shouldn’t eat meat, and then other people argue that point, then other people argue that point and other people argue that and blah blah blah. But the whole what we “should” or “shouldn’t” do, the whole what’s “natural” and what we’re “designed” for things I don’t like to talk about because all those words are super loaded and way too debatable and unproveable to base a lifestyle on. You can argue all day and night and the only conclusion you can really reach is “leave each other alone.”

The main thing for me is, eating is really, really intimate, right? Like the only time I ever put anything (apart from breath) in my body is when I eat, for girls and gays it’s when they eat and when they have sex, it’s a really intimate thing to do. Plus, everything you eat becomes you, like my finger is a bit of broccoli and my eyelash is a bit of, I don’t know passionfruit or something (even though the body only renews itself every 7 years and I haven’t been off meat for that long, but you get what I mean). Absolutely every bit of us, probably including our consciousness (depending on whether it exists entirely in the physical brain blah blah blah blah blah blah) is made of what we’ve eaten, it’s nuts. Like all we’ve got is our bodies, these vehicles that are strapped to our minds, they’re with us 24 hours a day, they’re everything we are. Anyway yeah, that’s why I think eating a bit of animal is a much bigger deal than wearing an animal or buying toothpaste that might have been tested on animals, like while almost everything I do causes pain or death or whatever in some way (farting depletes the ozone, right?), actually putting in my mouth pieces of something that’s been strapped down and killed and released its bowels in the death shudder, you know blood squirting over my tongue that I use to say things and to kiss with, and bits of mashed veins and nerves swimming around my stomach as I walk around and actually becoming me and becoming part of my organs and my brain and the neurons that my thoughts travel on (we think with our food, did you know?), it’s just a bit much, like a bit too intense, it’s too close. Like I can’t get past that a chicken leg is a chicken leg, a chicken used to command that leg with its brain to make the fleshy bits we eat expand and contract and walk over to its babies and regurgitate up food for them. It’s too much for me, because I am a hypersensitive, overanalytical git who thinks too much, but it’s not too much for other people, and that’s okay, because my standards aren’t for anyone else, just like yours aren’t, and plus there are heaps of other things I’m totally inconsistent with that other people are more consistent with: I’m not very political for example, and should probably do more political things/demonstrations/whatever about things I disagree with, but I never do; I probably buy clothes made from sweatshops sometimes; I watch pirated DVDs which is straight up stealing. Anyway that’s wound up being pretty much the main reason for my being a vegetarian, that other beings’ carcasses and deaths becoming a part of my body and mind creeps me out (is it over-the-top to use the word ‘carcass’ It just means ‘dead body,’ right?). It’s a little reason, but being vegetarian is only a little thing anyway, that I’m only writing so much about because it’s so easily misinterpreted.

It’s sort of like how I decided not to go to celebrity gossip webpages anymore because I saw this documentary about the paparazzi I support by visiting those sites, and that is a creepy, amoral profession that I don’t want to support. Does not clicking those pages make me a perfectly ethical person? No, of course it doesn’t, it’s just an easy thing to change, like not buying meat. Not eating meat is just a little thing that’s easy to do and contributes a little to a cause that doesn’t suck, plus it keeps me away from McDonald’s. That’s pretty much it. I could always change my mind, though.

Anyway there are lots of myths about and lots of idiots who follow vegetarianism, but it’s alright, really.

Does this make any sense at all?

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48 Responses

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  1. Henry said, on June 14, 2010 at 8:30 am

    Does it make sense? Yes, at least to me it does.
    I think that YOU are educated and balanced enough to make vegetarianism work in a healthy way, but I have having worked in health for 3 years have seen a few vegetarians/vegans that could never convince me that what they are doing is healthy.
    one person i worked with really sticks out in my mind, he is so pale, all the time and he eats soooo much salad and vegetables all the time, but he is thin (skeletal) and looks very weak. most vegetarians i’ve met, unfortunately, don’t make it look healthy, despite there claims they are getting all they need, it is hard to believe.
    The fact that you can do 16 (was it 16? you didn’t mention it enough) pull ups (about 13 more than me) with out any meat in your diet proves you can make vegetarianism a healthy choice.

    Anyway, without going on and on, I commend your efforts Nick, seriously. I don’t think I could do it. Despite the vivid imagery i now have of myself (formed mostly of chicken breasts) which repulses me a little (a lot actually) I am sorry to say, at this time, I will make no changes to my diet. My contribution to society is to avoid battery hens and eggs, support local produce when possible, and do my very best not to be wasteful with food. Diet wise, i eat (and love) vegetables! I dare you to try my mums vege tray and not finish it! But I don’t think I could give up meat entirely…

    • Nick said, on June 14, 2010 at 8:51 am

      I wasn’t saying you had to!! I just said why I did. You don’t have to give up meat at all you go ahead and enjoy it, friend, I never denied that it tastes awesome! I think the whole “I’ve met skinny vegetarians” idea is a lot like the “I’ve met bigoted Christians” idea, it doesn’t mean they’re all like that – but you said you know that anyway. And I enjoy your feedback very much, I worked pretty hard on this one.

      • Henry said, on June 14, 2010 at 8:58 am

        Ha Ha! your hard work paid off. Very well written.
        Just one more thing.
        “whats *that* extra B for?”
        “thats a typo”
        AND
        “what about bacon?” “no” “ham?” “no” “pork chops?!”
        “they all come from the same animal!”
        “sure lisa, one *magical* animal…”

        Now I’m done.

  2. Rowan said, on June 14, 2010 at 8:52 am

    So, does this mean you’ve stopped smoking tobacco, now..? =3

    Bacon, end of discussion. And, by proxy, I assume that babies also taste as good as pigs, since they almost sound the same when they squeal in terror…

    It does make sense, I just enjoy challenging your opinions, if you can’t back them up then there is a logical flaw and isn’t based upon reasoning, but you’ve done a good job here and I don’t think I have much more to say (I just enjoy pushing you, we have good debates!).

    Also, any challenge I give to your ‘wimpy-vege-arms’ is jocular in nature (wee, political buzz words!) and I think you know it’s not aggressive as some ‘others’.

    Well written! A -

    • Nick said, on June 14, 2010 at 8:59 am

      A -? I’ll take it! And bacon tastes awesome, it’s what I missed the most when I stopped eating meat! Which I think I’ll call “meating” now, as I like portmanteaus. And neologisms. And other words overeducated underintelligent people use.

      • Rowan said, on June 14, 2010 at 9:07 am

        Maybe even “demeating”?

        ‘When I decided to “demeat”‘, and always use scare-(air-)quotes around it!

      • Tim said, on June 15, 2010 at 8:56 am

        XKCD link for completeness:
        http://xkcd.com/739/

    • Henry said, on June 14, 2010 at 9:03 am

      just quickly Rowan, your are a funny man.
      and out of curiosity what did he loose marks on? douchbaggery? grammar?
      haha jokes!

      • Nick said, on June 14, 2010 at 9:10 am

        I have a built in “lose half a grade” for douchebaggery in everything I write. Did you read the very last thing I linked, under “idiots” – http://www.lifepositive.com/body/holistic-recipes/recipes/vegetarianism.asp ? Most of it is legit but then they quote some asshole:
        “Endorsement for this comes from Georges Ohsawa who, in his book Zen Macrobiotics, prescribes vegetarianism for purely physiological reasons. Says he: “People who eat hemoglobin foods may become murderers, liars, cowards as a result and may not realize that their unhappiness is caused by wrong eating. This is because they are depending for sustenance on animals. Animal meat has the ideal composition of an animal; animal glands produce hormones fit for creatures that act instinctively and are unaccustomed to thinking.”

        Ohsawa goes to the extent of maintaining that if Mahatma Gandhi had not eschewed all animal products in his youth, he would have become a cruel revolutionary instead of an apostle of nonviolence.”

        Ehhhhhhh nooooooo.

        • Henry said, on June 14, 2010 at 9:15 am

          wow!
          I did not read it (I went as far as opening the link, saw how long it was and decided against it)
          But wow, there are some crazy, half cooked theories out there.

          • Nick said, on June 14, 2010 at 9:54 am

            I get the feeling it’s a little like when humble and honest Christians read about “Christians” killing abortionists and gays and such. “Come on! You’re ruining this for the rest of us!”

  3. Henry said, on June 14, 2010 at 9:04 am

    Opps, *you* are a funny man

    • Rowan said, on June 14, 2010 at 9:10 am

      I’ll take either, I mean ither, I mean, neither, I mean nor, I mean…FUCK…! Or? LET THEM EAT CAKE.

      (I mean thank you, Henry!)

      He lost marks on…I’m a jaded professor and none of my students engage me in a way where they deserve full marks, or something equally as Hallmarky? And then I bond with Nick over a NotDog and a game of Baseball and really see where he came from the wrong side of the tracks *Nirobi*.

      “You’re the man now, dog!”

      • Nick said, on June 14, 2010 at 9:13 am

        “You’re the man now, dog!” – classic!!!!!!!!

        Man this comments section is getting out of control.

      • Henry said, on June 14, 2010 at 9:19 am

        sounds like the plot of a movie more predictable than Monster-in-law. but i own that on DVD, so i guess i’ll produce it if you can secure keanu reeves to play Nick and Harrison ford as the professor…

  4. Alison Bacon said, on June 14, 2010 at 10:33 am

    I loved this post, Nick (you are a great writer, btw). I eat meat intermittently and eat more since I moved to this part of Asia and married a confirmed carnivore. I grew up in western Canada where everyone is a semi-vege-head hippi, so the idea isn’t that weird to me, but it is weird to me how people get so outraged about something that has nothing to do with them. Why people care if you choose to eat meat (or most anything else, for that matter) is beyond me. If you said you didn’t eat legumes, or cruciferous vegetables, or sugar – would anyone care?

    • Nick said, on June 14, 2010 at 11:56 am

      Yeah some people actually get mad at you for not eating meat. I think a lot of people feel like they’re being judged by people that don’t eat meat and so they react against the idea of it, and since a lot of veges *are* judgmental, I can see why many turn up their noses at vegetarianism! I guess the main lesson is never to generalise.

  5. pepperedthought said, on June 14, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    *puts on suit*
    Now I’m no fancy, big-city lawyer…but this sir, was a very good post.
    I thoroughly enjoyed the comments as well (even though I’m sullen Henry took my Simpsons quotes) and agree with a lot of it. I really don’t feel comfortable judging people on what they eat (unless it’s just tub after tub of butter), so I’m glad there isn’t a schism in our friendship on the Great Meat Divide. But I will say that I have noticed in the last couple months of me eating better (i.e. a helluva lot more veggies/fruit/the like, extremely lean beef and chicken), I have noticed a considerable change and maybe will try beating your pull-up record.

    • Henry said, on June 14, 2010 at 10:51 pm

      Sorry about that, here is one more quote.

      Jimmy: I have this crazy friend who says it’s wrong to eat meat. Is he crazy?
      Troy McClure:[Laughing] No, Jimmy, just ignorant! You see, your friend hasn’t heard of the food chain. Just ask this scientitian.
      Scientist: Uhhh…
      Troy McClure: He’ll tell you that one creature invariably eats another to survive. Don’t kid yourself, Jimmy. If a cow got the chance he’d eat you and everyone you care about!
      Jimmy: Wow, Mr. McClure, I was a Grade A Moron to ever question eating meat!
      Troy McClure: Yes you were, Jimmy. Yes you were. [Playfully rubs Jimmy's head]

    • Nick said, on June 15, 2010 at 6:00 am

      Jess, I could never schism our friendship. *tells self that that sentence makes sense*

  6. pepperedthought said, on June 14, 2010 at 10:54 pm

    “When I grow up I’m going to Bovine University!”

    • Henry said, on June 14, 2010 at 11:17 pm

      (applauding with a prideful look, eyes welling up)
      very well done pepperedthought. very well done indeed…

      • Nick said, on June 15, 2010 at 5:08 am

        I am thrilled with all this Simpsons quoting! One animal does invariably eat another, even the herbivores are carnivores!

  7. Ben said, on June 15, 2010 at 12:43 am

    Good post Nicholas.

    I stopped seriously paying you out after you started researching the different foods and the benefits they all have and when you started making delicious salads etc that I actually liked.

    I felt kind of bad when reading this post though because the next tab along on my explorer screen was a menu for a new steak restaurant I’m going to tomorrow night (For state of Origin) with Whitney and Co. It’s called Moo Moo’s.

    I shit you not.

    *tear*

    • Nick said, on June 15, 2010 at 5:16 am

      Moo Moo’s is a funny enough name that you should not be ashamed of going there. I hope you like the food! When a restaurant dedicates its whole menu to one type of food they usually do it pretty well. Though I haven’t had steak since 2006 so maybe I’m remembering it wrong.

  8. Cousin Tim said, on June 15, 2010 at 11:35 am

    Some quality food for thought there (ha ha sorry). It seems like it comes down to the main reason you’re veggie is that you’re squeamish about it, although you’re very eloquent on the subject.

    Not that you asked, but I get wound up by people who angrily harass vegetarians about their reason for not eating meat, like they can only have one. They want to know if I consider large-scale cheap meat production to be bad because…
    a) …animals are treated cruelly?
    b) …the meat isn’t actually very healthy?
    c) …the meat isn’t actually very nice?
    d) …it trashes the environment?

    My answer would be “all of the above”. I don’t think these things are isolated – they’re all about respecting the world and it’s contents (including oneself).

    Notably I can’t donate blood in most western countries. Nobody wants my blood because I happened to live in the UK at a time – the 80s – when some British farmers considered it acceptable to take “the ground and cooked left-overs of the slaughtering process as well as from the cadavers of sick and injured animals such as cattle, sheep, or chickens” and then feed that to cows (who generally prefer grass and stuff). The resulting epidemic resulted in 4.4 million cattle being slaughtered, and the human incubation period means that no-one really knows what the long term human cost will be.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_spongiform_encephalopathy

    However, the industry still does this kind of stuff, they just render it at a higher temperature now. All kinds of wrong…

    Personally I don’t take issue with the meat eating per-se as long as I’m sure about the origins and quality, but I generally avoid meat and identify as veggie because it’s easier than explaining why I might eat meat at my house but I don’t want your manky sausages. And of course it’s OK to eat fish because they don’t have any feelings (thank you Kurt).

    I’m totally with you on the “we all screw up so do the best you can and don’t be too judgemental” bit though.

    • Nick said, on June 15, 2010 at 4:58 pm

      I love the input. I’m squeamish about eating meat yeah, but it’s about the dead animals becoming me and my thoughts is also a big reason. Thinking with bloodshed. I mean the reason is a little more, um, fleshed out than just “I’m squeamish.” That was an entirely accidental pun, though in retrospect I’m quite happy with it.

      “a) the animals are treated cruelly” But you said you don’t take issue with meat eating if you’re sure about the origins and quality – how sure can you be of meat’s origins and quality, unless you see it get killed yourself? Even organic “humanely killed beef” I mean we really don’t know anything about its cultivation. Even “humanely killed” beef gets its head strapped down on a table, the animal struggles, however briefly… this would happen no matter how humanely the animals are meant to be killed, no?

      I couldn’t tell if you meant it about whether animals suffer is important but you don’t mind about where fish comes from – Who is this Kurt that says fish don’t have feelings, did he ask a fish? I feel bad when I see a fish flapping on the floor of a boat gasping for air (water), you know, it’s mouth opening and closing. It’s funny when people exclude fish from vegetarianism. I think people do it because fish look less like people than mammals.

      Animals being treated cruelly isn’t really one of my reasons, because animals still die fairly horribly in paper and cloth production and the building of a bridge I drive over and everything else I said, I feel like if I were to say ” I don’t eat meat because of animal cruelty” then I’d have to stop using paper, and shirts made from cotton harvesters, you know? Plus I pay taxes and the government uses plenty of that money to contribute toward animals suffering – destruction of natural habitat, social security for farms that make meat, etc. Animals definitely suffer during the production of meat but I can’t make that a main reason and be consistent with the rest of my actions.

      “b) Meat certainly isn’t healthy,” but neither is pizza and I ordered one five minutes ago, so I feel like I can’t make that a main reason.

      “c) the meat isn’t actually very nice” – I’m sorry, but meat tastes awesome. I mean peri-peri chicken. And crispy bacon. I mean meat tastes terrific.

      “d) It trashes the environment.”
      Yeah it’s pretty bad for the environment, this article is an interesting read. But again, so is using paper, and clothes. And soy kills a good chunk of the rainforests in its production as well, um, this and this are good examples. But then there’s this article which rebuts that a bit. I don’t know. There’s too much I can’t know about “effects” of what I do, I feel like food going in my mouth and becoming me is the only concrete reason I can use, concrete action I know I’m doing.

  9. Cousin Steve said, on June 15, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    Love the blog cus, I reckon it proves you’re not short of energy that you wrote the whole thing (unless you just cut and pasted someone elses with a few changes……). Just kidding I have faith (or do I…..). Ok, enough dot dot dot (or is it……).
    Anyway love the reasoning, seems good to me. Not sure about

    “Animals being treated cruelly isn’t really one of my reasons, because animals still die fairly horribly in paper and cloth production and the building of a bridge I drive over and everything else I said, I feel like if I were to say ” I don’t eat meat because of animal cruelty” then I’d have to stop using paper, and shirts made from cotton harvesters, you know?”

    seems your arguing yourself into being a pointless hypocrite (as opposed to just a hypocrite) for

    “I probably buy clothes made from sweatshops sometimes; I watch pirated DVDs which is straight up stealing”

    we choose our limits to our conscience I guess.

    And what about the chicken eggs that have tiny foetuses inside but no one realises and then you eat them…….

    • Nick said, on June 16, 2010 at 4:55 am

      Dead foetuses though. Nothing that you find in an egg has ever walked around and breathed, though I see your point about not even knowing about eggs (this feels more like an abortion argument though). Like I said, I’d be more consistent if I didn’t eat eggs, but I’m still eating them, because I’m not consistent.

      I don’t get what you mean about arguing myself into being a pointless hypocrite as opposed to just a hypocrite; what’s a pointless hypocrite? It’s not that I don’t see any point in any actions, like I said: not doing everything you can for a cause doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do a little bit. But no one can pretend they’re totally consistent.

  10. MapMaker Mike said, on June 16, 2010 at 2:18 am

    Nice. It’s all about moderation and consciousness. If you get a chance, I think you’ll like my site – http://www.themapmakers.org. I think we agree on quite a bit.

    Cheers,
    Mike

    • Nick said, on June 16, 2010 at 4:56 am

      Who the hell is this guy.

  11. Claire Auburn said, on June 17, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Hi nini,
    Wow, that is one mega post! you’re a smart guy. I have had a few conversations with cousin Steve about this, him saying that it’s lame of me to eat meat when I am supposed to be the kind of person that cares about the world blah blah. And I sort of have a stock standard answer to that (it comes up quite a bit when you’re an activist) where I say, “the problem for me isn’t eating meat, it’s the way that meat is produced under capitalism- ie. with profits of the business at the expense of the health and happiness of the animal, the health of the consumer- esp those that can’t afford organic meat, the environment, the mental health of the abbatoir workers (who are never offered free counselling, despite the nature of the work etc)…. and I’m an anticapitalist who is active in social justice movements to change the system, so in a sense it doesn’t matter what I eat, because I’m doing a lot more than a lot of vegetarians to make the lives of animals better and change the key reason why animals are given such a harsh deal right now.”
    But like a lot of my stock standard answers from my late teens, I think I probably need to think through a large section of that (is a post revolutionary world a vegetarian one? And if not, then how do we determine the best way to produce meat?) so thanks for giving me something vegetarian to chew on…xxxxx

    • Nick said, on June 17, 2010 at 10:14 am

      zzzzzzzzzoom! i thought you had to eat meat anyway because of your allergies and junk giving you little variety in your diet? that’s a pretty solid reason.

  12. Please God Bring 'Unhitched' Back to Television said, on June 21, 2010 at 6:16 am

    Dear Nicholas,

    At the outset of my comments allow me to say ‘kudos.’ Do they say ‘kudos’ in Australia? ‘Kudos’ being among the more ludicrous, Seussical words in the American vocabulary I assumed it was Australian in origin. Kudos, in addition to being a demarcation between the nobodies and the noteworthy, is an American candy bar. They are truly disgusting, and delicious. I assume there is something in a Kudos bar that explains its addictive properties. If you’ll excuse me for a moment, a man off-camera has just handed me a piece of paper…I see…apparently that magical, addictive ingredient is fat, delicious, unctuous, creamy fat. Thank god, I think to myself, that I live in an era that my Serengeti-dwelling, hunter-gatherer progenitors could have fantasized about only under the influence of psychedelic mushrooms. Fat, Nick, delicious, tumbling balls of saturated delectability. Fat and cable television and a comfortable couch on which to indulge in both is as close to Utopia as mankind is likely to come. We have arrived. This may seem tangential, but it does have a point. The point is pizza.

    First, two magic words: Manville Pizza. Is your mouth watering Nicholas? I bet it is. You pseudo-vegetarian bastard.

    Second, and more devastatingly, I would like you to indulge me in a thought experiment. Imagine, please, a Pizza Hut pizza. Are you imagining it Nick? The thin, crisp crust, the rich, sumptuous aroma of meticulously blended and perfectly melted cheddar and mozzarella cheeses, that almost mystical je ne sais pas that we unconsciously seek out and that you selfishly take for granted in Western cuisine. What I would like you to imagine now, Nick, is that instead of a crust there are twelve vienna sausage rolls–meat of indeterminate origin although I’m willing to bet that its taxonomic distinction begins with the words ‘mechanically separated’. Can you imagine such manna, such ambrosia? Truly if the Lord had been feeding the Jews this pizza in the wilderness they would have remained wanderers, realizing full well that its gustatory wonders far outstripped those of any promised land.

    Actually you’re right, this isn’t going anywhere. Except, remember when you ate that nasty-ass New Year’s pizza in Shanghai that had little vienna sausage rolls instead of a crust? I know you can’t hear this but I’m making mock vomiting sounds all over the place.

    Finally, when did you become such an excellent writer? This is good stuff. You should seriously consider submitting it.
    “What about submitting it to PETA’s ‘Militant Activist’ wing?” I ask.
    “That wasn’t quite what I had in mind,” you reply.

    • Nick said, on June 21, 2010 at 11:43 am

      Ladies and gentlemen, Jason Ludlow. As Homer Simpson said to Ricky Gervais, “You take forever to say nothing.” But I’m delighted you have finally commented on this piece of shit site, even moreso because you mentioned Unhitched and Manville Pizza, the two highest points of the China year, nothing will ever surpass eating Manville Pizza and watching Unhitched, nothing! Do you remember when Stock Indian Character made friends with that bouncer, and then the bouncer acted like a bouncer in situations outside of situations where that would be appropriate, such as in a movie theatre? Oh, Farrelly brothers, comic genius like that hasn’t been seen since Ben Stiller’s fiance peed on him in your last film, “The Heartbreak Kid.” Lolz!!!1111

      I yearn for that Christmas pizza with the hot dogs in the crust. If I hadn’t stopped eating meat I could be packing that into my arteries right now! Maybe I should rethink this whole meatlessness thing

  13. Henry said, on June 21, 2010 at 7:24 am

    HAHAHA! ‘Militant Activist’ wing
    who ever you are, you are funny.

  14. Tix Turvey said, on June 26, 2010 at 11:06 pm

    English,

    I read this some while ago, but it was too long for me to reply to all the points so I lost interest in doing so. However, upon reading it a second time, I have decided that I will respond to the general theme:

    Who is this written for? Is it for you to reaffirm your beliefs, to silence the naysayers, to convert the undecided to your cult?

    My take on this, and the only really logical one, is each to their own. Yes, it is true that you can have a very healthy diet (but 4 eggs a day is typically said to be too many, btw – try limiting yourself to 2) as a vegetarian, as you can with being an omnivore. But with either, if you are lazy then you will fail – ie. only eating lettuce, or only eating KFC. Hence why a lot of people who become vegetarians become anemic, and a lot of people who don’t are fat. One thing I will contend is that only eating meat is perhaps not the best way to go, however for my particular health issues I do eat a lot.

    I’ll be frank, I don’t care for the ‘ethical’ or ‘moral’ reasoning not to eat meat. I fully aware of what I’m eating when I am – I’m not one of those hypocrites who hates to think that they’re gnawing on a good piece of pig when they’re having ribs. That doesn’t bother me at all. Nor does the killing process. Hallal is a little different, that stuff is fucking brutal and I avoid it where possible, but the standard killing processes I am quite content with. If I were to be euthanised when I’m old and frail the same way that the animals are killed for meat (water + electricity + brain = dead), I personally wouldn’t have a problem with it.

    As far as the health benefits go, I have irritable bowel syndrome. If I have milk/dairy, vegetables (particularly onions, legumes, etc.), or fruit, I get the shits. My nickname is Leighthane in some circles and I can assure you that eating vegetables for me definitely contributes to global warming. Hence, I make a concerted effort to minimise my consumption of the above, while using supplements and a very controlled diet to ensure I eat healthily. Since starting this diet, combined with simply hitting the gym once a week (weights), I have already lost about 4 kgs. For me, a high protein is the only way for me to be healthy.

    Thus, ethically I sleep very well at night knowing full well what my meat consumption entails, and health-wise, I shit really well during the day with my diet. For those two reasons (mostly the second) I won’t be changing anytime soon.

    I think the whole problem with this debate is the necessity to catagorise people, which is a biological function of our minds. Humans love to create an ‘us and them’ to separate friend from foe. Being vegetarian may work very well for you Nick, and if so, I’m glad it works for you morally and physically. Being an omnivore works for me on both levels, too. The problem is that both sides feel judged by the other by self-righteous, sanctimonious gits. Put simply – if vegatarians are happy not to judge me, I won’t judge them.

    The problem with that is there are too many hippies on your side, and hicks on me. So lets just leave it that you and I won’t judge each other and I’m happy.

    Tix.

    • Tix Turvey said, on June 26, 2010 at 11:10 pm

      Ignore my typos, I did this straight after waking up…

    • Nick said, on June 28, 2010 at 9:06 am

      Maybe I should have specified, I have 4 eggs a day but only one or two yolks, which like you said is a fine number (you can’t have too many egg whites). Yolks are good fats and good for you, esp if you’re exercising, as we need a bit of cholestorol to build muscle, though I still don’t think it’s been proven that yolks raise serum cholestorol in the human blood stream – every other week there’s a different study endorsing or condemning eggs. It’s annoying. Anyway, like a lot of things, if you’re exercising regularly, it’s good for you.

      Other than that, I think I addressed everything else in the, um, essay. It should be obvious I’m not trying to convert anyone, since I said that quite a bit – it’s an apologia, I think is what this kind of writing is called, it’s an attempt at clearing up misconceptions.

      If you have a condition and a doctor tells you you need to eat meat, then eat it, man. I wouldn’t sacrifice my health for this diet – that’s why I’ve done so much reading on it, to find out if it’s unhealthy. If there was any scientific reason that a vegetarian diet was unhealthy, I’d abandon it, but as it is there isn’t one. There is for you, so eat all the meat you like! But even if you didn’t have a condition I would tell you to eat all the meat you like, of course, as it’s your decision.

      I agree that people always need to categorise other people – I’m vehemently against labeling myself, I stopped calling myself Buddhist a while ago and I don’t even like the idea of labeling by nationality. Vegetarian is the only label I put on my views, only because I don’t eat meat and that’s all the label means – lots of people understandably think it also means “asshole,” which is kind of why I wrote this.

      • Henry said, on June 28, 2010 at 12:50 pm

        The simpsons said it over 15 years ago:

        Homer: Hey! I saved your life! That egg sandwich could have killed you by cholesterol.
        Lenny: Pfft, forget it, Homer. While it has been established that eggs
        contain cholesterol, it has not yet been proven conclusively that
        they actually raise the level of serum cholesterol in the human
        blood stream.
        Homer: So one of those Egg Council creeps got to you too, huh?
        Lenny: Aw, you’ve got it all wrong, Homer. It’s not like that.
        [a man in an egg costume creeps, then runs, away]
        Homer: You’d better run, egg!

        • Nick said, on June 28, 2010 at 4:07 pm

          YOU’D BETTER RUN, EGG!!!

          I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that. We still don’t really know, 15 years later! Besides, I get so little cholesterol as a vegetarian, and you do need to get *some* in your diet – eggs are pretty much my only source.

          http://www.askmen.com/sports/foodcourt_60/66_eating_well.html

          • Nick said, on July 12, 2010 at 3:44 pm

            Another article saying whole eggs are the best thing in the world and losing the yolks is an evil thing to do http://tinyurl.com/Whole-Eggs-VS-Egg-Whites

            I hate science. Make up your mind!!

            • Henry said, on July 12, 2010 at 9:16 pm

              Moe: Whats science ever done for us? T.V. off

              Moe: take that! and that! (tusk falls on him)
              oh, i’m paralysed. I just hope medical science can cure me.

              Ned: Science is like the blabber mouth that ruins the end of a movie. well i say there are some things we don’t wanna know! important things! (crowd cheers)

              • Nick said, on July 12, 2010 at 9:43 pm

                Important things!

  15. Oh Hai y’all « Chile Sin Carne said, on November 14, 2011 at 2:33 am

    [...] because I’m still embarrassingly vegetarian, which pushed me even closer to giving up that whole ruse like I did the last time I came to Shanghai, as did the trip to the 5th birthday of Haiku which had [...]


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